|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Why did you decide to
do Darkon as your first documentary?
Andrew Neel (AN): When I was a senior in college
I made a film, I guess you’d call it
my resume film. It was called ‘Bill 528” and
it was about a guy who’s in love with
his roommate and in love and has all these
online relationships that he kind of… and
he gets confused between fantasy and reality.
So I got interested in virtual worlds and simulacrum
and all that kind of stuff. Then started writing
my first feature length screenplay on Dungeons
and Dragons and through the research for that
screenplay I came across LARPing (live action
role playing games). Then [I] became fascinated
with LARPing and thought that the best medium
to discuss that was in fact, not a narrative
screenplay or a narrative film but a documentary.
So I made connections with a few people in
that group and then didn’t have the time… didn’t
have the money to make it happen. Then a few
years later at my producers wedding, I met
up with Luke and said look, I want to do this
thing… let’s go do it. So we both
went down and started doing it and here we
are.
It’s funny these terms like co-director
or whatever, I mean we both went down and started
shooting it and [we] both ended up directing
it and so that’s how it happened. And
I think Luke had a… immediate gravity
to the idea. So we were both just really into
hanging out with these people and to all the
ideas that were behind it.
Really, it happened because we had a camera
and we just started going down there. Literally
we got in the car and we’re like:“Who
knows what’s going to come out of this.” We
drove down there, took our cameras out and
we started shooting and talking to people.
There was no “grand plan” . There
was a bunch of fantasies out there that I think
we both had but that's it. You just have to
dive in. You know you can sit around and be
abstract about what it’s going to be,
or how it’s going to be done but the
first step is just getting on the ground and
figuring out whether this topic is going to
work for you (whether your interested in it).
Then once you’ve gotten by that, I think
that's the point where you start getting more
literal more concrete about: “ Ok how
am I going to do this… I’ve got
to get a proposal together… I’ve
got to get people interested… Who’s
going to produce it… How am I going
to do all these things…”
Luke Meyer (LM): You know you start with an
idea… and then you figure out what’s
going to look cool on camera and what you want
to be shooting. Make sure you have the camera,
and go.
AN: It’s just a get up and go kind of
thing. I think that Werner Herzog said that… I
don’t remember… I think it was
in that shoe movie… he’s like: “Most
people don’t make a movie because they
don’t have the guts.” There’s
a certain amount of truth to that…
How did you find out about the Darkon
organization? How did you
discover these
guys?
LM: Well, it came out of Andrew’s research.
There’s many different types of LARP
groups out there. He actually looked into another
one called ‘Dagorhir’ here, but
it was just mainly through the internet. Just
researching things and figuring out that they
(Darkon) had this land map which is kind of
unique to their club… Which added a
huge amount of depth to the way they play the
game. It made it more interesting as far as
following a story with them.
AN: Yeah… I was talking about the concrete
elements that you figure out after… It’s
a little like when you’re writing a screenplay
you know? I remember I had a screenwriting
professor and he was like: “The first
thing you got to do is when you’ve got
an idea is you write five pages.” And
that’s what going down there is… It
probably wont wind up in the final film but
you got to get out there and you’ve got
to get the juices flowing.
And were you hearing rumors
of a possible uprising of Laconia
vs. Mordom?
LM: There was a different war going on when
we stepped in actually. Mordom was fighting
the small nation of the Dragonhood.
AN: Which is those first couple wars you see,
when Mordom is up there and their like: “Oh
we have to clear the path and…” it
sort of sounds like ethnic cleansing kind of
talk. I remember after that battle Skip Banner
(the main subject) was kind of like: “I
don’t know how I feel about crushing
their temple and all that kind of stuff. I
don’t know how comfortable I feel with
that…” I think we both sort of
sensed a certain amount of ambition in him.
LM: Unease with the current political situation
he was in too.
AN: So we started following him… but
I think Luke and I always considered him like… almost
like he was like one of the filmmakers you
know? I mean I suppose that happens in a lot
of documentaries… The main character
becomes so much a part of the filmmaking process
that they’re almost part of the creative
team in a way.
LM: There’s like a subconscious transfer
of ideas that happens just from spending a
lot of time with someone on different sides
of the camera.
AN: I think Skip, to a certain extent, probably
saw this movie as an opportunity to make a
big move. I think he wanted to make a big move
and the opportunity sort of presented itself.
And we were there, so we sort of went along
for the ride.
Do you think that your presence there
maybe pushed him towards
his rebellion in
Darkon?
AN: Absolutely.
LM: Definitely.
AN: There’s no question. Especially
because it’s a role playing game… There’s
a certain element of performance to the whole
thing, which is part of the reason that making
the movie was totally unique. Because the Darkonians
look at everything in terms of the scenario....
and I think that our movie simply was another
kind of special adventure or another possible
scenario to play out. You know this scenario
was intimately connected to all of the issues
that were floating around in the realm… with
Mordom being an oppressive power and other
smaller countries discerning themselves…
It was really
interesting to see how some of them compared
what was going on in Darkon with what’s
going on politically in the U.S. Like the
couple that compared Mordom with the United
States and themselves with the terrorists…
LM: The terrorist thing? Well, in making a
fantasy world, so much gets drawn from the
real world in little bits without even really
thinking about it. People are always trying
to make sense of that as they played the game.
Like: “Am I like the big bad guy or am
I the underdog?”
AN: And every big bad guy used to be the underdog
and…
LM: Yeah, and often people considered themselves
both at the same time so…
AN: Like Americans!
(Laughs)
AN: Also there was a lot more of the crap
flying around that didn’t even get into
the movie. There was this whole thing where,
because Skip used to fight with Mordom, Keldar
was accusing him of being a flip-flopper. So
there was this whole “Kerry” flip-flopper
thing but then Skip was kind of acting like
a warmonger, so he’s kind of a “Bush” but
then they’re accusing Mordom of being
a big bad empire like America. So is Keldar “Bush”?’
LM: It got even more complicated than that.
People would come up to us and say things like “ I’ve
been thinking about this lately, I feel like
our country’s kind of like England and
this country’s kind of like America
and this country’s kind of like the terrorists
and these guys are kind of like Russia…”
AN: This is a fact of the post modern world.
I mean, I was watching Conan last night and
I was thinking: My god, this is the Spartacus
myth, this is Japanese imperial kind of stuff… I
mean there are so many different historical
and fantasy references all being jammed into
one moment. Our lives are a composite of those
real and made up experiences and we all jam
them together into these wild combinations.
And Darkon certainly is a good example of that.
Even Skip’s country is Greek but they
wear 12th century medieval stuff! I mean it’s
really weird you know? I said to Skip “Skip,
I’m confused man. You’re wearing… there’s
like this Greek thing going on…”
LM: And he’s got a Scottish name.
AN: Yeah… “and your name is Banner
McCragg. I don’t get it.” And he’s
like: “Dude, it’s fantasy…”
It was really interesting to see their
use of spies and clandestine
dealings at
night.
AN: It’s so much deeper than that too.
I mean the stuff that goes on at night is so
cool. There’s assassinations and people
running around buying stuff. A lot of dirty
dealing going on and stealing and all in game
stuff like golden banners and stuff like that… The
underworld of Darkon is vast.
So what kind of cameras were you guys
using?
LM: At the very very beginning it was an XL1
and a Sony handicam. Then we got a Panasonic
DVX 100a out there…
AN: The DVX 100a was my mom’s money.
My parents helped me out and got me the DVX.
Which was enough to get started there… a
good bit of the footage that’s in the
movie was shot with that camera.
LM: With the DVX?
AN: Well a lot of the movie was shot with
it, but I mean before we actually got some
money. Just having a camera and being able
to go down there… That’s one of
the exciting things about filmmaking today…
LM: What technology has done for it…
AN: Like really. Two guys can pick up a camera
and go make a movie. Now, that makes for a
lot of crap that’s out there.You really
have to… if you're a good filmmaker
and you want to be a better filmmaker, it’s
good to think about holding the camera steady.
Working on your craft and all that stuff… but
to begin with you can pick something up and
get your buddies together and go do something.
There was some nice cinematic shots
which really drew you into the fantasy of
Darkon. When did you bring in your DP in
the process?
LM: At various points. There are two DP’s
on this and I can't remember the first time
we brought one of them down there but… They
would come down (alternating) to different
events that we were shooting. Then the last
two big battles we had them both there shooting
different stuff at the same time.
AN: Yeah, for the major cinematic moments,
one or the other of them was either operating
or in charge of the camera. Some of them shot
more in the field. I mean Luke and I are very
hands on in the verite sense of the shooting
part. They [also] did some of the verite stuff… [it’s]
all kind of mixed together. Their shooting
and our shooting. Then we [also] used them
more as an asset on the bigger budget stuff.
You know helicopter shots or crane shots… and
often in the battle shots… There was
an A camera and a B camera that were both the
Panasonic vericam. Then what we called the “embedded
units” were on DVX100a’s wearing
surcoats so they blend into the battles. There
were sometimes three operators in addition
to the two main units.
You were actually in the middle of
some of these battles? Did anyone get trampled?
Did the players get angry at you for disrupting
the flow of the game?
LM: Yes to both of those. As far as them getting
angry, it was like a passing moment of frustration,
like an obstacle. They’d just [say]: “Out
of my way!” But they got very comfortable
with the fact that we were out there.
There [are] ‘referees’ called ‘elders’ who
are just out there making sure that the game
play goes smoothly. They’re non-fighting,
non-playing people standing on the field. So
players are used to dodging those type of people.
I think that they adapted to us in a similar
way.
AN: Both of our DP’s got clobbered.
I remember once Carl was operating the varicam
and that camera just got clobbered! And then
Hillary, I think she got just straight tumbled
twice. Because you’re really in the middle
of it you know? And I got clobbered countless
times. Once so hard that the camera dropped
out for like three seconds. You just get really
whacked! Which is really fun, I think everyone
of the shooters were just like… it’s
really and adrenaline rush!
How did your fundraising go for Darkon?
Was it difficult to get
investors involved?
LM: The fundraising was handled all by Ovie
Entertainment, the production company we co-produced
this with. So we don’t actually know
much of the details about that. There was a
period at the beginning where…
AN: I guess the first step was acquiring Ovie… Right?
Initially it was Luke and I and our two producers
at seeThink (Tom & Ethan). We sat down
and put a package together along with our little
trailer we made. From there we had a couple
people that we were passing it around to… in
the end we felt that Ovie had the most dedication
and the most interest and love for the idea.
So [we] went with them and they raised the
money. I guess, for most filmmakers like us,
the step is being able to get a package together
and start talking to anyone you can about who
you can get in touch with, who might be interested
to look at that package. Just get as many eyes
on it as you possibly can… producers,
other directors… anyone. Anyone who
might be able to, though 10 or 20 degrees of
separation get it to someone else who might
be interested.
What were some of the other problems
with production?
AN: Well we sat down at the very beginning… Luke,
me, Ethan and Tom and the DP’s we were
like: “Ok what’s the best way to
deal with this? We want to get these kinds
of shots. We want to get those kinds of shots.
We have to stay out of their way and let them
fight… but we also got to get a crane
shot.” So what we had to do is
strategically set up the crane so that at a
certain time the crane would have to be here….
and then the crane set up is a two hour set
up. Especially with the platform we had to
build. So we’re like: “The first
rush is going to happen here. But we really
want to get this crane shot so well ok we’ll
catch the first rush while the crane is here
then we have two hours to move around and by
then we’ll still have light and we’ll
get this crane shot…”
LM: And this whole time, the game is going
on right around this crane being set up. That
never stopped.
AN: Yeah, total chaos. I mean, imagine a shoot
where you’ve got about 250-350 extras
and they don’t listen to you for the
most part. It’s just melee. They charged
three times for us in the beginning and then
the real thing started, and then they really
went into it. But once the game is going, you
can’t stop it. I remember once
they got really pissed at me because I was
trying to get a shot of the door being busted
open and then a big legion of them arrives
and then it was like, “Jesus Christ you
can’t be getting up here… we’re
in the middle of playing!” There’s
even a shot in the movie where a guy is like: “Move
that camera now!”
LM: It’s weird. There was a feeling
like everyone on camera is doing the people
behind the camera a favor by being there. They
don’t want us to get in their way…
AN: The castle battle day was incredibly stressful.
You just had to go with what was going to happen.
I mean, if someone was trying to kill somebody
else it’s not like you could be like: “Whoa,
wait a second, we got to get the steady cam
over there.” You just couldn’t
do that you know? So you had to just be like: “Oh
my god! Get them, over there!”
In a way, on those big shoots was where the
formal aspects of documentary and fictional
filmmaking really collided in a very bizarre
way. I remember those days I’d be like: “Am
I shooting a war epic or am I shooting a verite
documentary? And I think in the end… what
we wanted is the audience to be like: “Whoa
whoa wait, is this Braveheart… it’s
got a plywood castle?” And that kind
of confusion was the very thing we wanted people
to have. Because for those moments for the
players in the game those lines do become blurred.
Yeah.. I was really surprised. At
first you’re kind of snickering a bit
because they’re doing this Dungeons
and Dragons kind of thing. But there’s
a moment where you totally get lost in it
and all of a sudden you’re just into
the battle! You want to find out what happens.
Is Laconia going to overthrow Mordom? You
really get into the story.
AN: That’s really gratifying. Some people
have said what you were just saying... and
for me that’s really gratifying because…
LM: That was the goal.
AN: That’s what we wanted. We were like: “Share
the fantasy!”
What was your approach to the music
of the film?
LM: I can’t remember how it all began
exactly but… We got into the edit and
we were trying to figure out what we were going
to do about that. Because it needs some music
and it needs to be just right. It can’t
be too fantasy or they come off looking ridiculous.
And it can’t be too modern… it
can’t be to contemporary or it loses…
AN: You lose the fantasy.
LM: Yeah… And I knew Jonah Rapino from
a couple years ago and one of the bands that
he has, this band called “Devil Music”,
had been doing live music scoring for old silent
films like Nosferatu and The Cabinet of Dr.
Calgari and stuff like that. So me and Andrew
approached him about scoring this movie. He
saw the trailer, [he] saw some of the footage
and got very excited about it.
AN: He’s so talented. He’s incredible… because
we were asking him to walk a very fine line.
I mean, we were giving him tracks from Conan
the Barbarian and Braveheart to look at and
telling him: “ Make sure it’s not
too epic. Make sure it’s not too cheesy.” That’s
sort of hard you know? And he came out with
these things that were so perfectly eloquent
and fantasy inspiring without being over determined
or cheesy.
As a young filmmaker you have to use your
friend networks. Luke is particularly good
at that, he knows a lot of very good musicians
and interesting people. It was just great we
had that opportunity… and you know he’s
(Jonah) a young guy so he wasn’t demanding
more money than we could handle. So we were
all in it together. It worked out really well.
Honestly I don’t think it could’ve
been done any better than it was done. It’s
just such a hard line to walk. And the whole
movie is always walking the line. “Are
we mocking them? Are we involved with them?
Are we laughing?” So the music faced
the same struggles that every element of the
film faced and it just came out perfectly.
LM: And he’s based in Boston. So a lot
of this was like file transfers over the internet
for him to check things out, phone calls to
discuss which way the sample track that he
put down needs to go.
AN: Also on the technology tip… because
he’s a young guy and tech savvy and makes
a lot of his own music in his own bedroom.
He was able to temp out epic tracks in his
bedroom. Sometimes he’d just record the
violin track himself and… do a little
bit of midi with the horns. So he was able
to temp out without an orchestra and real musicians.
Then when we knew what we wanted, he was able
to get all his friends who were really talented
musicians in there at a low budget and put
it all together.
Again these are all the hurdles that one faces
when making their first movie. Frankly, it
all comes down to meeting young people who
are talented. Who are willing to put their
heart and soul into something… just
for the sake of it. Because they believe in
it and they love it and … and they have
a vested interest in it too. If this thing
does well, things could go better for me too.
Did you secure distribution? Did you
find a distributor?
LM: The courting process is definitely going
right now. But nothings been secured yet.
This film definitely needs to break
out of the festival circuit!
AN: I think it will. You know the film has
a learning curve because…
LM: It’s such a weird form…
AN: Yeah… When we were making the film
we really didn’t have a roadmap. We didn’t
have anything to compare it too. When we sat
down with all the material, we didn’t
have any movie that we could reference. Sometimes
we’re referencing Grey Gardens and sometimes
we’re referencing Conan the Barbarian!
I mean that’s like very strange to be
referencing those two things together. I think
that the fact those two elements are alive
in one movie, probably takes a little bit of
wrapping your head around. But once people
wrap their head around it and see how much
people are enjoying it, I think that it will
get the distribution it deserves.
But again it’s the courting process
that we’re going through right now and
there has been a tremendous amount of interest
from some really big deal types. So that's
exciting!
How did editing go? What
things were you trying to get
across in editing?
LM: First of all, Brad Turner was such an
amazing editor. Especially for this project,
his enthusiasm and speed in dealing with 300+
hours of footage. [He] made it possible to
wrap our head around what we had in front of
us. We had thematic ideas going into the edit
and then it was a matter of looking at the
15 months of shooting… Laying that out
chronologically and figuring out how that was
going to stand out as a story.
AN: Going into it we were like: “Ok
we’re going to have these big battles,
and there’s going to be a story that
has a start and a finish. …and then
we’re going to look at their home lives.” That
was kind of it. That’s what we knew.
So we started sorting the footage and we were
very thorough about it. We went through pretty
much all 300 hours. It was a vary rigorous
editing process. I think the reason for that
is the fact that we didn’t have a roadmap,
there was no simple answer to a form that didn’t
really exist.
Also Brad is just.. again you know… On
the same point that the Jonah thing was on.
You really at this stage in your career (when
you’re starting), you have to have people
that are do or die. And you have to be a little
crazy. Brad was a little crazy like us. He
wasn’t getting paid for it basically.
He was working full days on his commercial
jobs and we’d get there at 6pm and we’d
work until 1am. Then we’d work all weekend.
I think he worked 15 hour days, close to 15
hour days for…
LM: Half a year.
AN: For literally almost half a year. I think
he had one or two days off. Which is just psychotic!
We also had this sort of psychotic attitude
towards getting this thing done. Again it’s
all about your friends and working with people
who are psyched to do something… and
have that kind of energy. It’s not a
9 to 5 job. And I don’t enjoy working
with people who want to deal with film in a
9 to 5 form.
LM: It’s kind of like… you have
to approach the project like it matters so
much that you have to put the rest of your
life aside. Chicken and the egg sort of thing.
You make it matter that much and then the end
result matters.
AN: You put strains on all sorts of… it
puts a tremendous strain on your personal life
and your significant others... It’s extremely
taxing. But really fun!
What did you learn while doing your
first documentary?
LM: There’s a long list of little things
that you learn about this or about that. Film
is such a collaborative thing, the issue of
trust, especially in documentary where… there’s
no contract with the subjects… they’re
doing what they’re doing and they’re
allowing you to be there… Everything
is built on trust between the filmmakers and
the subjects. In the collaboration of the film
you have to trust someone’s going to
hold up their end of what their doing. You
have to trust that ideas are shared and everything
like that. Getting into a comfortable place
with that is extremely important.
AN: I think I had this idea when I got out
of college that there is some kind of easy,
magical step to making something and all you
needed was a good idea. The fact of the matter
is, anything that you make in film is actually
the combination of thousands and thousands
of very good little decisions. Every moment
you’re making a decision… And
each little grinding slow step forward you
have to live through and you have to learn
patience. People always talk about their fucking
vision and all that crap. All it is in the
end is you have an idea and then the devil’s
in the details and you have to work through
every little problem. And the culmination of
all of those little excruciatingly difficult,
annoying details is what makes something good.
Plenty of people will have visions and ideas
or whatever. In the end it’s about how
hard you’re willing to work and whether
or not that kernel of an idea has something
to it. That was in a way for me, a revelation.
What would you like audiences to take
away from this film?
LM: Well, we really wanted the audience to
be able to share in the fantasy with the role
players. We also want people to consider what
role playing goes on in each of their day to
day lives, and what goes into fantasies we
use to escape from our day to day lives.
AN: This goes back to some sort of grand ideas
but.. I think the human experience is defined
by a gap between our mind and our body. That
which we formulate in our brains and that which
is there in front of us… And the gap
between those things is the fundamental gap
of all human drama and human experience. For
me, this film and Darkon was a very kind of
sparkling, brilliant, manifestation of that
gap. I would hope that people would walk away
from it thinking about that gap and thinking
about how they tried to bridge that gap. That’s
the really grand philosophical part of it for
me. More than anything else, I really hope
that people walk away from my films thinking… there’s
a lot to think about in this movie…
And then on the role playing tip… I
think that we all are role playing all the
time and that the process of getting older
and creating a persona for one’s self
is role playing. Life is a process of role
playing and I’d also want people to walk
away thinking about that.
LM: There’s something to be said for
letting people into a place where they can
break down the stereotypes of what gamers are.
Because there’s a lot of stereotypes
that sit on that group. This is just a window
into what people in that subculture actually
do.
AN: Yeah it’s very easy to stereotype
the gamer… and that’s where the
snickers come from in the beginning. And so
well they should, it is funny you
know? But the point of the movie is to hopefully
find some similarities with our own lives through
watching the movie and being able to associate
with people who play Darkon. And realize that
they’re really dealing with very fundamental,
universal issues in the human experience.
What advice would you give to new
filmmakers about making their
first documentary?
LM: Something that’s very important
is having subjects of the movie understand
what you’re doing [and] why you’re
there. Because if they don’t then they’re
concerned that you’re going to show them
in a weird light. In documentaries, you want
to be close to the subjects. That’s kind
of the whole magic of it. Documentary films
can bring you to a place where you don’t
normally get to go. So if there’s not
that trust between the filmmakers and the subjects,
that closeness can’t bring the audience
to that place.
AN: As I was saying earlier… get up
and start shooting. If you have a camera, you’re
ready. Just pick it up and start shooting.
That’s the first step. There’s
no substitute for bravery and motivation. And
it does take bravery to get up and start talking
to people. It has to become your life and it’s
got to be something that you like enough to
become your life…
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
